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I Just Dropped in to See What Condition My Transition Was in: Part III - Rejecting Survivalists?

In Part II - Context, I wondered whether there were distinct cultural differences we needed to pay attention to, between the UK and the US. In this post, I spell out one of them that I see as pertaining directly to the Peak Oil community: the perspective on ‘Survivalism’ as a philosophy.

I had initially thought it was just a matter of personal prejudice on Rob Hopkins part, when I disagreed with him so vehemently in his September 4, 2006 piece entitled: “Why Survivalists Have Got It All Wrong.” He displayed pictures of pseudo-cavemen, and made reference to selfish survivalists hording lifeboats on the Titanic and an “every man for himself” behavior in a house fire. He was responding to Zach Nowak’s piece that had earlier posted in Energy Bulletin. He wrote:



“I have very little time for the survivalist response to peak oil…”



I couldn’t imagine how he could so easily dismiss such a large group of people who were not only savvy about Peak Oil, but were also, in my community, among some of the most active members of our sustainability group.

My response:



“I read what you wrote with interest, but I’m afraid your photos and tone might be undercutting your message. It may be easier to stereotype and point to extremes in a community than it is to look more carefully at what wisdom their philosophy might offer to all of us. If we are interested in building community, we may need everybody, including those who have chosen to keep the basic arts of preparing for difficult times a living, breathing art form. These same people teach others how to hunt or butcher or breed animals; how to can or grow or harvest food; how to weave or sew or preserve fabric. While we may not choose to do all of these things, a move toward greater self-sufficiency might be the unifying message we can all embrace. Survivalism, in its more moderate form, is also social commentary that requires the adherents to “walk their talk.” When we teach our children at home, it is commentary on a loss of faith in public education. When we choose to grow our own food, it is because what is sold as ‘food,’ is often tasteless and lacks nutrition. When we slaughter our own animals, it is because we know they haven’t eaten hormones and chemicals, have been raised with care, and slaughtered gratefully.

There is also an implicitly political message in making a caricature of the “survivalist,” as it suggests that there is nothing in our environment that we need to adapt to and “survive.” If we embrace any notion of having to “power down,” we may want to consider a different message.

Such ridicule isn’t deserved by many people I could label ‘survivalists.’ A true survivalist has gone into that ‘dark night’ and realizes that the notion of isolation is an absurd one.

One final point: when the fire breaks out, the true survivalist has already taught their families to prepare for it, which exits to use for escape and to crawl, not walk to them if the smoke is heavy. And also, I doubt you’d get most survivalists to buy the notion of an “unsinkable” ship. The best would have taught their families to swim, and what to do in the event that there was no room on the lifeboats. That event happened because of a lack of planning. I doubt a ‘survivalist’ was to blame.”


What Survivalists Got RIGHT
The Transition Handbook has a chapter highlighting Post Petroleum Stress Disorder. Here Rob mentions the “irrational grasping at unfeasible solutions.” Also included is a single paragraph that continues to create a caricature of nihilists and survivalists. Hopkins drags out stereotyped examples designed to ridicule these movements, suggesting that, unlike his own, they have no real contribution to make. As I mentioned in my response to his article, my experience is distinctly different. Far from having nothing to contribute, many people in these movements strongly embrace not only the need for community, but offer preparedness skills, insightful, and valid criticisms of our culture, and its predicament. It was difficult for me to understand, then, why in a book filled with encouragement to reach out to the widest possible audience and teach tolerance in community-building, he would stereotype and reject potential allies, who shared his concerns. In addition, overlapping communities with some differences appeared to me to make a movement MORE resilient, not less. It was disappointing to read.

I also wondered why he would be so hostile to the very same folks who will be some of our most skilled community members in the future. Why a parody promoting intolerance for those who “think differently?” Was the goal to “brand” TI as a more “mainstream” movement that’s “not like them?” At the time, I saw such derisiveness as mean-spirited, and marginalizing the dedicated efforts of those who identify themselves in this way.

I’ve come to look upon this as yet another cultural difference.


Fighting off Invaders with a Shake of the Fist!
While I could find dozens of US sites that covered many different perspectives on Survivalism, I could find only one UK site devoted to the same theme. In one of them, a humorous response by one reader was this:


“In the event of the world turning upside down, I think most folk in the UK will dig trenches behind their privet hedges and be prepared to fight off invaders with a shake of the fist and a harsh letter to The Times...failing that, Capt. Mannering and his brave brigade will restore order and justice from GCHQ at Walmington-on-Sea ...as long as we have tea, we will prevail!! “


Capt. Mannering is a character from a popular British sit-com about a military official who keeps order in the UK during WWII.

The only other item about “Survivalism” in the UK, spoke of a 1975-1977 TV series, about a small band of survivors who emerged from a pandemic that wiped out more than 95% of the population. In sharp contrast to our own more recent gun-toting holocaust TV series “Jericho,” the protagonist here, Abby Grant, and her ad hoc group, remained reluctant to arm themselves, even after being confronted by armed adversaries on numerous occasions.

Guns have traditionally been shunned in the UK, and even police did not carry them until recently. One person attributed the spread of hoof and mouth disease to the fact that UK vets aren’t allowed to carry guns, and therefore could not kill the animal on the spot, when they learned they were diseased. As previously mentioned, the UK has, what “is believed to be some of the strictest gun legislation in the world” while the US has some of the most lenient.

Guns and Butter
The very notion of a “survivalist” evokes a distinctly American image of the Wild West, or Appalachian folks with shot-guns in the hills with hidden moonshine stills.

This pervasive spirit of individualism, or the more poetic sentiment that “good fences make good neighbors,” is much more uniquely American. Like the automobile, that allowed us to ‘take in the wide open spaces,’ a majority of Americans believe that they have a right to own a gun. About half of the U.S. population actually live in households with guns, but there is a broad geographical difference between these folks and those who do not. The bulk of gun owners generally live in rural areas and small towns, while the strongest advocates of strict gun laws tend to live in large urban areas.

These rural areas and small towns also enable other features embraced by survivalist thinking, such as raising livestock, farming and creating root cellars. Far from being isolationist, these areas recognize the inherent need to rely on others. Our urban cousins (sometimes referred to as “city-zens”) might have less interest in these arts, given their limited space, zoning restrictions, and easy access to shopping.

Natural Disasters
In a fairly mild climate, like the UK, it is more difficult to remember that there exists in the US, and many other countries around the world, a need for preparations as protection against “the weather.” This winter, my neighbors and I were without electricity for a week or more. My preparations allowed me to have light, keep warm, and to cook hot meals from food storage for my family. We were both the givers and recipients from neighbors, of food, water, and other necessities. We checked up on those that might be facing problems. These preparations are part of our rural lifestyle. Like many of my neighbors, I have pets and livestock to care for, and can’t allow a little ice storm to threaten my life or theirs.

Many survivalists I know have become so, after they’ve lived through a variety of natural disasters or climate conditions such as tornadoes, hurricanes, floods, wildfires, earthquakes or blizzards. Some have had to survive the more mundane problems of unemployment that required them to live off their food storage when money was in short supply. A weeks worth (or even three months worth) of preparations doesn’t make you a wacky reactionary, or anti-social when you live with such threats. It makes you sensible.

These preparations can be as simple as following Red Cross and FEMA recommendations by keeping a first aid kit, shovel, and extra clothes in the car, or maintaining a small kit of emergency supplies in the home and car, containing food, water, a space blanket and other essentials. A “bug out bag” can enable your family to preserve precious photos, medicines and a few non-electric toys, when you are forced to flee in a wild-fire. Basic skills, such as knowing how to drain your plumbing, or shut off your gas, can leave you with a home to return to, once the danger has passed.


Preparation: Community AND Individual Solutions
But still, unlike our ancestors, who simply assumed that it was smart to be skilled in basic arts such as canning, preserving, chopping wood, raising livestock, and yes, even killing an animal that posed a danger to your children, these are lost to a great many of us. They aren’t required of urban dwellers. Even those who should take an active interest in “surviving” presenting dangers often do not. They simply assume that government officials will rescue them when the worst happens. This is a decidedly “non-community” focus, that taxes the common resources of all of us. Hurricane Katrina is a teaching tale in this regard.

More worrisome, those who were well-prepared during this disaster experienced the hostile attitude Rob typifies, and were often looked upon with suspicion by relief workers, when they preferred to stay put, after the initial danger had passed. One writer believed that the relief workers assumed that these inhabitants must have stolen what they had, so rare was this notion of being “well prepared.” He believed that these officials were convinced that public shelters were automatically a better solution, than remaining in one’s home, and some homeowners reported being threatened when they refused to go.

I would like to suggest that in the US, we should be emphasizing the need for more of our neighbors to be well-prepared, rather than mocking those who are.

Beyond Cliché: Toward Embracing Commonality
I, therefore, would ask that we, here in the US, take a more sober approach to our writings and our attitudes toward those who might identify themselves as survivalists. We can begin by promoting sensible books like Kathy Harrison’s now classic “Just in Case.” Such books make basic notions of surviving a wide variety of disasters, whether you live in the city or the country, good common-sense.

The current edition of the Transition Handbook is a manual now being regarded as the blueprint for the future. Unfortunately, his prejudice against survivalists is now officially part of the TI perspective. It is unfortunate that Hopkins is incorporating this second-hand cliché of the American survivalist movement, as a truism. Having no first-hand experience of how large and diverse a community it is, he is doing a disservice to spread this bias. I attribute this to another example of how dangerous cultural blinders can be, when we seek to transplant a set of ideas from one culture to another.

American “Survivalist” movements straddle a vast array of attitudes and opinions, from deplorable notions of white supremacy, to accepted wisdom of community self-sufficiency that bear a great resemblance to the best aspects of TI. They do, however, emphasize skills, stores, and self-defense, whether on an individual or community level. “Hope for the best, prepare for the worst” could be said by a survivalist, but this does not automatically mean an individual approach. This preparation often encompasses the community; encompass notions of giving and charity, while simultaneously stressing individual responsibility.

The single most popular and widely read blog, SurvivalBlog, emphasizes the values of community, sharing knowledge, the necessity of faith, and the importance of charity, while stressing the need for “bullets, Band-Aids and beans.” It has approximately 124,000 unique visits per week, 208 million+ hits since it was founded in August of 2005. It is a growing force in the US Peak Oil movement, and might be the dominant paradigm currently having a far greater number of adherents in the US, than the TI movement.

We can all have a good laugh pointing out their “folly,” or we can be sincere in investigating where we share common ground. The choice is ours.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Sandi Brockway on February 13, 2009 at 8:46am
Kurt Saxon is a well known American survivalist writer. All that I posted refers to American History and politics. Perhaps you do not recognize it - and this could be part of the problem.

This thread, I thought, was somewhat regarding history - or are you wanting to revise it? Is that what you are saying?

I never said the typical contemporary American Survivalist is a racist. Oh, please. I said there were historical ones that were. We are discussing what history has given Survivalist a BAD NAME - not only a bad name here but in Australia and UK apparently. My message was right on target.

It is not my problem or my fault if there is a new groups of people wanting to reclaim, redefine and own the name Survivalist, while disowning and denying its history - wanting to pretend the history was something it was not. If you cannot acknowledge what an American Survivalist wrote about the history of Survivalists, and why it might have negative connotations, I can do nothing about your willful ignorance. I suggest you and your friends find a new name without the baggage.

"commie traitor hippie dope fiends" - how did you know that was a common stereotype used by reactionaries? Did not you read the piece i posted?

"fascist patriot god gun fanatics" - is an amalgam not meant to indicate that any historical group as possessing all adjectives. Though, there were a couple of Survivalist paramilitary type groups that did actually possess all those characteristics plus racist!!! Saxon does admit and touch upon the racial tensions of the 60s and 70s, the urban exodus, and the paramilitary inclinations. If you cannot believe a Survivaist journalist, the man who coined the phrase, I cannot do much more for you here. If you want to name yourself after something with such a bad heritage, that is your problem.

I found your remarks concerning this US site membership and Rawles to be illogical and extremely immature, so it seems there is little point in discussing anything with you further. I can give it one good try. I will give you a logic project once again. But this is the last one.

Seems we are really talking about two kinds of people, and that Survivalist is just but an artificial label, like many labels, that has had a very negative history and associations, like Nazi or Racist, etc. so far, here, in UK and Australia. How did you come across owning that name without not noticing its earlier unsavory adherents? You want to reinvent it into some sort of superhero that possess all admirable characteristics. We are only, really, talking about SELF RELIANCE vs stupid people who are codependent, suffering learned helplessness, even super specialized people who are unable to function much outside their specialty, and people who know only how to shop. Of course, even shopping could be converted easily into the skill of culling and gathering. Oh, no, now I am going to insult the codepedent helpless overspecialised shopper!

If we were to now ignore there is such a word - erase the word temporarily. Can you humor me for a few minutes and drop the word out of existence. This is an effort to exercise some critical thinking skills. This is all I am suggesting. Stop owning and possessing the identity so much.

Just what set of specific human characteristics are we admiring, defending or glorifying? and what characteristics are we, in contrast, loathing? If you want Rob to call it paranoid isolationism, then why not just call the traits admire by name too? the trait is SELF RELIANCE. WHy push the term Survivalist? I know why, because you still want to push the image of the gun wielding superhero. You cannot let go of the gun. the label, the identity, lets you keep your gun.

I will say this one more time, i never said that all Survivalists are racists. Even by Kathy's admission, there were paramilitary survivalist groups who were racists.

I am a Christian. I do not use the old testament to justify doing things that Jesus did not condone. Rawles is not someone who would or could be a spiritual inspiration to me. Why should it? He lives the life of an isolationist - no one knows where he lives. He has no community. It means little to nothing to me that he has, as you bragged, a much larger internet traffic than this site. he brags he does not have to see people ever again because of the internet and that he likes it that way.

Do you think Jesus looked kindly on the money changers or told people to carry arms and live in isolation? Gun packing is less effective than our justice system. What if Rawles is just another anti Christ?
Permalink Reply by Dan Dashnaw on February 13, 2009 at 4:05pm
Some might point out that Jesus said "I come not to bring peace, but a sword."
Granted there are some fools who take that literally. I am not one of them. I believe, Sandi, that there is evil in the world. I believe the sword of discernment is our only weapon. I am not suggesting that Rawles is my guru, or should be yours. I have to keep repeating my points because you refuse to look at them squarely.
1) the survivalists you abhor are a minority. whatever historical roots they have to the modern notion of survivalism are about as relevant to modern self-identified survivalists as the progressive slave -freeing Republican party of the mid-1800's is to George Bush. Thinking people recognize that sometimes the word doesn't change but the social force of it does. I am asking you to think.
2) It is unwise to label people around constellations of beliefs you imagine that they hold.
3) I recognize that the Survivalists that I defend hold beliefs that are not easily reconciled to TI, and are the source of real differences. I am suggesting that we work with self identified survivalists as we find them, find common ground where we can, and clearly disagree where we must.
4) You should know better than to attack people who believe in God. Religion is a personal matter. Attacking the religious is unwise and repels more than it attracts.
5) The real issue is whether TI USA is willing to move towards removing the word "survivalist" in its condemnation of anti-social isolationists in the handbook. The behavior can be scolded without labeling it as "survivalist".
Permalink Reply by Dan Dashnaw on February 13, 2009 at 4:12pm
Finally since you decided to wax Biblical by speculating if Mr. Rawles is the Anti-Christ, I am puzzled why you, as a self -identified Christian have only referred to belief in God in such a disparaging way. I make no such claim.
I am not a Christian. I do not own guns.
I am deeply invested in TI becoming a thoughtful and inclusive movement, which is why I have invested so much time engaging with you. I have tried to be respectful and thoughtful. But I must say if the dictum "by their fruits you will know them" was applied to our conversation, and you were its sole representative,I would have nothing to do with such a hateful, judgmental, and provincial movement.
Permalink Reply by Sandi Brockway on February 15, 2009 at 3:20am
Ideologues Call for Post-Election Militia Revival

Posted By David Holthouse On November 19, 2008 @ 4:31 pm In Media Extremism | 46 Comments

As the anti-Obama [1] backlash continues to play out, with new [1] reports of effigy lynchings, racist graffiti and other disturbing incidents surfacing daily, a number of voices on the far-right fringe are calling for a revival of the militia movement, a loose confederation of hyper-survivalist paramilitary groups that claim legitimacy under the Militia Clause of the Second Amendment.

Characterized by “black helicopter” paranoia and militant opposition to government regulation, especially concerning the purchase and possession of firearms, the militia movement has dramatically declined since peaking in 1996. Law enforcement crackdowns, arrests for weapons violations, and frustration among those waiting for the revolution that never came all contributed to that collapse.

But now, with the election of the nation’s first black president, some conspiracy theorists and fringe “Patriot” radio hosts are seeking to reverse that course by calling on their friends and countrymen to arm themselves, organize and head for the hills in preparation for a fast-approaching second Civil War. Their language is remarkably similar to that employed by the more notorious militia leaders of the 1990s.

“My fellow patriots, constitutionalists and citizens of the failing Republic, HELL is staring you in the eyeballs,” said Greg Evensen, a militia sympathizer and former Kansas state trooper whose essays and radio broadcasts are widely disseminated on apocalyptic Christian and militia websites, as well as the nominally mainstream right-wing Web forum NewsWithViews.

“We will no longer argue amicably about politics,” Evensen said. “Those of you who have anointed this socialist, Muslim sympathizing, gun rights hating, Mexican illegals embracing, abortion loving charmer POTUS [President of the United States] … I see you as my enemy. Am I picking a fight? Pretty much. Might as well, one’s coming down the street anyway. You have been warned.”

Evensen’s [2] screed, which first appeared online Oct. 31, five days before the election, concluded with an outright call to arms: “American patriots you need to decide what your battle plans are. You cannot wait any longer. Are you stored up? Are you prayed up? Have you stayed up all night figuring it out? Have you decided that the time has come? Will you stand firm when they shut off your supplies? Will you resist in the cold and the dark? Will you go all the way to constitutional victory? Minuteman and militias were responsible for their own arms, ammunition and supplies. Can you muster with others and provide the essentials? Can you sleep with your back to a tree on cold, wet ground? Can you shoot and then seek good cover so you can survive another shot? When martial law is declared, can you and will you do these things or will you be rounded up by the hundreds of thousands each day? This is the new reality, friends.”

Another prominent “constitutionalist’ and NewsWithViews contributor, Devvy Kidd, declared in a [3] column dated Nov. 10 that “Barack Hussein Obama is dangerous to freedom and liberty,” “Barrack Hussein Obama spits on God’s laws,” and “Our very survival depends on the states of the Union revitalizing the constitutional militias.”

“Forget states like California and New York. Real Americans in those states are outnumbered by the lazy, ignorant mobs who demand more and more from the public treasury,” Kidd said. She identified the states to “concentrate on” as: Arizona, North and South Dakota, Kentucky, Idaho, Montana, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia. “I would also like to include New Hampshire whose state motto is Live Free or Die, but over 50% of the voters in that state allegedly voted for Obama,” Kidd said. “Is their motto dead or are there enough real patriots left in that state to get the job done?”

The omission of Michigan from Kidd’s list seems to be a glaring oversight, considering that state is home to a half-dozen of the largest and most active Patriot groups in the country, including the Michigan Volunteer Militia, which posted this message to its homepage last week: “Let it be known that the day after the election, we began the reforming and strengthening of a lawful Constitutional militia, dedicated to preserving our freedom, our Constitution, and our way of life.”

Meanwhile, sales of firearms and ammunition are [4] reportedly skyrocketing nationwide as gun stores hold “[5] Obama sales,” and the survivalist chatter on some right-wing blogs is heating up, exemplified by this post to “Moonbattery,” dated Nov. 9 and signed, “Glenn M. Cassel AMH1(AW) USN RET.”: “One in the belt, one in the hand, one over the shoulder. ATV’s ready to roll, gear packed, food, fuel, ammo stashed in various hillside hideaways. What’s the expression … ‘guns, gold, gas, grain’? Multiply that by two. But the daily Rosary will do more than all others combined. Pray to prevent formation of The Brown Shirts. I don’t care where your families live, they’d better have plans.”

46 Comments (Open | Close)

46 Comments To "Ideologues Call for Post-Election Militia Revival"

#1 Comment By TheExaggerator On November 19, 2008 @ 5:36 pm

Conservative talkback radio host G. Gordon Liddy has issued a similar “call to action” on his show of November 13th, though not explicitly referring to militia-type action.

As transcribed by Media Matters for America:

CALLER: Good morning, sir.

LIDDY: Good morning, Jim.

CALLER: I’m honored. I — I didn’t hear the music, but I did note some dead air. Now, that’s not a host problem, but an engineer’s responsibility, is it not?

LIDDY: Well –

CALLER: Anyway, knowing how important your time is, I apologize. And also knowing the evils of Marxism, liberalism, fill in the blank, I am really concerned about the newest version of the brownshirts. And I’m concerned that, you know, almost immediately, that — that new little group will be formed. And I’m also very concerned about the firearm owners in this country. I think we need a bit of general advice from you as to what we can do as a group with our firearms.

Do we need to buy up all the Cosmoline in the country and bury our weapons? And I’m — I’m curious as to — as to what advice you have for us. I mean, we know what’s gonna happen. We know that they can’t get their fingers on the brass ring until they’ve disarmed us. I don’t know — you know, health care is a concern, but it’s not my primary concern, and I think that –

LIDDY: Well, health care, as I warned before, and as [former House Majority Leader] Dick Armey [R-TX] — who’s also, you know, a Dallas, Texas, guy —

CALLER: He’s a good man.

LIDDY: Yes, a brilliant man. He said, look, it’s coming in the guise of health care, but that’s not really what it’s all about.

CALLER: Certainly.

LIDDY: What it’s all about is acquiring dominion over the individual.

CALLER: Absolutely.

LIDDY: Well —

CALLER: How do they — how do they obtain any kind of dominion over an armed populace? I mean, it has to be their number one concern.

LIDDY: Yeah, I would think so. And Barack Obama, by his voting record, has demonstrated that he is, you know, totally anti-gun.

CALLER: Oh, certainly.

LIDDY: Now you say what to do. Well, the first thing people are doing — the stories were in the news yesterday, and there’s more stories today, about how the gun stores are being stripped by everybody going in and buying firearms.

CALLER: Yes.

LIDDY: And they’re — they’re particularly buying handguns and semiautomatic shoulder weapons that look like —

CALLER: Yes, like the M1A, and –

LIDDY: Yeah. They — they look like –

CALLER: Oh yeah, the black gun.

LIDDY: Yes, assault weapons, but they’re not. An assault — an assault weapon, by definition, is capable of fully automatic fire. These are not.

CALLER: Yes, sir.

LIDDY: But — but people are buying them. Some because they’ve always wanted one and think that the Obama administration will try to outlaw them again, the way the Clinton administration did. Others figure, “OK, I’ll buy as many as I can get my hands on, and I’ll be grandfathered in. And then when they’re banned, I will be able to sell them at a very nice profit.” So, that’s going on. But the main thing is, you know, get them into private hands as quickly as possible. Now, what do you do? The first thing you do is, no matter what law they pass, do not — repeat, not — ever register any of your firearms.

CALLER: Yes, sir.

LIDDY: Because that’s where they get the list of where to go first to confiscate. So, you don’t ever register a firearm, anywhere.

CALLER: Well, on the same hand, you know, if we’re — if we’re apprehended with a nonregistered firearm, we’re — you know, we’re under the jailhouse there, too.

LIDDY: Well, that’s — that’s true, but what — what’s gonna happen is, if you register your firearms, you’re handing them a list –

CALLER: Certainly.

LIDDY: — of where to go to confiscate the firearms. So don’t do it.

CALLER: I think that’s why we fear them.

LIDDY: That’s right.

CALLER: Because we have so many registered firearms. Out of, probably a dozen or more firearms that I have, I believe I have one 1911 that’s not registered, that I procured at, you know, at a gun show many, many years ago. I have an M1A that was purchased for me, much like you, by my lovely spouse. And I’m considering another M1A purchase, only the — the new SOCOM, the — the carbine version. Now, where am I gonna find one of those, and — and have the ability to purchase without registering it, you know?

LIDDY: Well, the — the purchase data will certainly show that you have it. But what I’m speaking of is any firearms you may have that they pass some law saying, you know, bring in your firearms and register them.

CALLER: Oh, certainly, yes. I understand now.

LIDDY: That’s what I’m referring to.

CALLER: OK.

LIDDY: That’s what I’m referring to. And then — and then, as to –

CALLER: I’m sure — I’m sure you made that clear. It just went right over my head.

LIDDY: OK. Well, at any rate, then, depending upon the intensity of the repression by the government, the way they’re, you know, seeking firearms and so forth, then I would say, yes, with respect to Cosmoline and, you know, proper wrapping and storage, and then putting them where they will not be findable by metal detectors and things of that sort. I’ll leave that up to your imagination, and because it differs from location to location, but that would be the thing to do.

As it turns out, Liddy has this Rather Nasty Reputation for endorsing the use of firearms against those in positions of Lawful Authority, which is well documented.

#2 Comment By ken mier On November 19, 2008 @ 6:21 pm

It appears that the New Administration will dive right for the parchment of the constitution.
The logic behind this is clear.
The recent coverage of the Washington Gun Ban has brought contributions for Pres. Obama so he must continue on Nationality with their plight.
This Country is in absolute paranoia, take away the right to defend themselves on their own property and the future homeland terrorist have an open door policy for search and seizure.
I imagine that we will build many new federal prisons soon.


hatewatch
Ideologues Call for Post-Election Militia Revival
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2008/11/19/ideologues-call-for-post-e...
============================================

"They've done a terrific job. And they have cut down the crossing of illegal immigrants by a huge percentage."

This is what Arnold Schwarzenegger said about the racist militia group called "Minutemen" that stations itself at the border with the intention of attacking those they think are crossing illegally from Mexico. We've seen US citizens killed by those who thought they were "illegal immigrants" as well.

It's important that this group, that even racist President Bush referred to as "vigilantes," be characterized as a "militia" and not an "armed citizens group," as some media have done. This group's aim is fascist, racist scapegoating for the failures of this country. We must stand up and oppose racist terror.

Schwarzenegger has openly crossed the line and has in effect endorsed the KKK and other white supremacist groups that are rife within "Minutemen." We must land the final blow to crush him politically, while the time is opportune.

Schwarzenegger must resign!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_al...
======================================
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=98

http://www.jmu.edu/writeon/documents/2002/bauer.pdf
Permalink Reply by Dan Dashnaw on February 15, 2009 at 5:13am
Sandi, we are in complete agreement on this point. Para-Military Fascism is a real danger.
Permalink Reply by Colorado.CA on March 26, 2009 at 4:33pm
Kathy - I absolutely loved this post of yours about survivalists! Thank you for saying what needed to be said on our behalf. Having lived in hurricane and blizzard country, it it only prudent for every household to be able to provide for themselves and not contribute to the burden on the community in times of disaster. Unfortunately, as you observed, preparedness is not the norm in suburban areas rather the opposite is true. Despite our good example of being ready for almost anything [apart from a nuclear attack perhaps], our neighbors look on us more as quaint odd-fellows rather than assets or resources for skills/knowledge transfer. We don't mind though... we will persevere and carry on with the food production and preservation, animal husbandry, weaving/sewing, and thrift that brings us such enduring satisfaction. I keep thinking that this recession/depression will bring others around to our way of thinking, but until that time, we carry on. Self-sufficiency and neighborliness are not mutually exclusive.
Permalink Reply by Kathy McMahon on May 25, 2009 at 9:45am
Thanks, CO,CA,

I think that if we are each carrying our share, we lighten the load for the entire community. We have more in common with survivalists than we have in contrast with them, so we need to broaden our outlook.

Self-sufficiency and neighborliness aren't mutually exclusive. Well put!
Permalink Reply by Sandi Brockway on May 25, 2009 at 4:08pm
Another great idea to add to your arsenal!
http://www.americablog.com/2009/05/boy-scouts-depict-us-iraq-vets-a...

I grew up in the city, and my dad was prepared with a stockpile of various guns (but we were more afraid of him than anyone else), an orchard, and a wife who grew up in poverty during the Depression and had a lot of prairie skills. He was a hunter, and butchered a great deal of our food. No one ever treated him as some sort of outsider.

I grew-up camping and backpacking, so basic survival and self reliant skills are not lacking. No one ever treated me like an outsider, so I have problems understanding how these people here are suggesting they are marginalized. What else are they doing to be marginalized?

I live in a remote small village now, and what we do not grow ourselves we buy at our local farmers' market from local farmers. I guess that is the beauty of living in an agricultural community. We know personally all our local farmers and produce vendors. There is a lot of open space and community and institutional properties that could easily be converted to community crops.

One of the more important aspects of reduced consumerism (as well as eating much lower on the food chain) that came out of the 1969 Club of Rome conference, is that people will have to learn to SHARE, cooperate, and reciprocate. But instead of discussing this most important aspect of communal or community life, we are propping up Survivalists, a term politically associated with anti-Communist pro gun border patrol advocates. Even the word anti-communist suggests anti-communal, anti-community. Maybe while we are here reinventing the meaning of Survivalist, we should redefine communist and socialist as being pro-community, pro cooperative.

Survivalism or survivalist? Primitive and pre Industrial skills or SurvivalisT training?

Survivalist business booms as economy flails
http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?topic=4079.0

The survivalist movement was considered somewhat on the decline since it peaked around 1996, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, which studies fringe movements around the country. But the SPLC warned last week of a rise in "hyper-survivalist paramilitary groups" as a result of the Obama election.

"Some conspiracy theorists and fringe "Patriot" radio hosts are seeking to reverse that course by calling on their friends and countrymen to arm themselves, organize and head for the hills in preparation for a fast-approaching second Civil War," the SPLC said on its web site.

Jim Rawles, editor of survivalblog.com said unique visits to his site are climbing. They've doubled to about 107,000 a week, he said. But he doesn't think Obama's election is the main reason.

"The main driver right now is the economic situation," he said. "A lot of people are deeply concerned we are on the cusp of another economic depression."

Barton Biggs, former chief global strategist for Morgan Stanley, recently wrote a book in which he warned that people should anticipate the breakdown of civilized society. He suggested creating a "safe haven" and stocking it with canned food, liquids, medicine, seed, fertilizer and other tools for survival.

In the same vein, Wilson devotes most of his program to topics like vacuum packing of food, generator silencing, and fire starting

But his politics are also clear. During a recent program he referred to "low-life interesting creatures that crawl over the border to get on Social Security." He said Barack Obama was a communist whose election was largely due to his race.
Permalink Reply by Kathy McMahon on May 28, 2009 at 1:45pm
Sandi,

You've made your point clear, again and again. You want to create distance and you want to tell all on this site and in this thread to distance as well. I get that. You hate what they stand for, their politics, they belong in one group and one group only. We should all reject them and the label, etc., etc.

I'm certain that those who label themselves "survivalists" in your neighborhood are happy to distance themselves from you, as well. Perhaps that sort of stand-off will serve you both well, as we continue to head down this slippery slope.

I have trouble understanding how your continued contribution to this discussion benefits the discourse. You have your opinion, and I think you've made your points abundantly clear, again and again.

Perhaps we can agree to disagree and you can share your ideas on other matters elsewhere? I think anyone reading this thread gets where you are coming from, as you've left no stone unturned...
Permalink Reply by Dan Dashnaw on August 4, 2009 at 4:56pm
Well, Sandi, it's only been a few months, and lordy, how our President has sunk!
He's managed to bail out banks, hire Monsan-tites, and genuinely wreck havoc with his so called progressive agenda.
Looks like a one -termite to me.
Frankly the starry eyed liberals make me want to puke. when will you learn that the elites control the horizontal and the vertical. NPR is as much their creature as Limbaugh. Wake up Sheeple.
TT is not the answer either.
Q+A. Where does their grant money come from?
Follow the TT money.....you may not like where it leads...and remember. they have your name ..address and phone #, and they know who your pals are.......

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