Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Eggleton on September 8, 2011 at 5:09am

mary rose,

Many of us are here because we developed or accepted an analysis that produced a recommendation to relocalize in a permacultural (site/resources specific) manner.

I find you suggesting that we drop it and start over.  Do I mistake your meaning?

Permalink Reply by mary rose on September 8, 2011 at 12:01pm

Yes, I feel  you do misinterpret what i am saying.  But with such a brief comment, Dave i don't understand what you mean specifically enough that i can address it.  

 

Can you be more specific about what you mean by: relocalize in a permacultural (site/resources specific) manner.  How do you see this differing from what i am writing?  (and please be specific.)   

 

Let me say this, of all the information available today, 75% was discovered in the past 25 years.  Information is now doubling every 8 months.  So, any organization is going to have to be willing to modify their mission as well as their "how to" frequently so as to ensure the latest information is incorporated, or else they will be so far behind as to be obsolete before they ever get started.  .    

Permalink Reply by Leon Breckenridge on September 8, 2011 at 12:19pm

Mary Rose

What is the difference between information and knowledge?  The "Flat Earth Society" still held meeting as late as 1960.  That is information but it contains no "knowledge" about the shape of the earth as it had been shown to be round a long time ago. 

A case can be made that there is an inverse relationship between information and knowledge.  If information "doubles" then it is likely that "knowledge" is reduced by a factor of 2 or more. 

 

Leon 

Permalink Reply by Jeff Mowatt on September 8, 2011 at 12:30pm

There's a powerful comparison between knowledge and certainty at the end of the Bronowski series on the Ascent of Man. He states ' The principle of uncertainty established once for all that all knowledge is limited"

Ending with a scene where he stands in an ash pond at Austwitch he concludes

 

"We need to close the distance between the push button order and the human act. We have to touch people.

 

Permalink Reply by mary rose on September 8, 2011 at 1:50pm

Jeff, 

Re: "We have to touch people."  This translates to "community" to me.  And learning together i feel is very important.  Moving from a "Me" to "We" society and thus into another level of conscious awareness of who we are within the greater whole of relationships.

 

And this is further justification to keep communities small enough that each member knows all of the other members and can reach out and "touch" and be "touched" by every other member.  

 

I am a student of Holodynamics, a program developed by V. Vernon Woolf, Ph.D. And i have worked unoficially with the Holodynamics program for close to 20 years now. Dr. Woolf calls groups "a being of togetherness" or BOT.  And what is known about BOTs, whether it is a group of two people or 100 people, the group tends to take on attributes from among its members in such a way as to create a new profile for itself that is collective in nature. Dr. Woolf used this program over 10 year's time to transform the former U.S.S.R. when invited to do so by the Institute of Natural Science in Moscow.  One of the main components of the transformation program was the creation of sustainable living communities by the people themselves.       

 

 

Permalink Reply by Jeff Mowatt on September 8, 2011 at 2:03pm

Indeed Mary and that's why I saw it as relevant to a site about social business. 

 

Likewise moving from you and me, to we.  

Permalink Reply by mary rose on September 8, 2011 at 12:36pm

Maybe this should be written information/knowledge is doubling every 8 months. I don't see how you arrive at the conclusion that a doubling of information would reduce knowledge by a factor of two or more.  Please explain.  

This was put out by Sony Corp. if i'm not mistaken. And the example provided with this is that new technologies are now being developed so quickly there is no time for individuals to go to a university to learn how to either build it or apply the knowledge necessary to use it appropriately. Therefore, the corporations will have to take on the task of providing the necessary information/knowledge/education during the construction/manufacturing process to those who will be using it. There simply cannot be any lag time as may have been the case in the past.  Possibly, in the past production time took so long that individuals who were going to learn how to use the product could attend a university and learn in what we now consider to be a "normal" manner.  However, what most consider to be normal today is passe.        

Permalink Reply by Leon Breckenridge on September 9, 2011 at 10:49am

Mary Rose

A search of "difference between information and knowledge" gave 75,000 hits.  One is a quote from T. S. Eliot's, The Rock.  "where is wisdom we have lost in knowledge, where is the knowledge we have lost in information" and should add where is the information we have lost in data.  I have been aware of this difference between wisdom, knowledge and information (data) since colledge.

There are also lots of "hits" about over loading the brain with sensory input "data" that results in little if any "learning.

Leon

 

  

Permalink Reply by mary rose on September 5, 2011 at 2:16pm

In working together in an Internet group to do tasks and take action, we need to be interactive. And the best way i know to do that is via SKYPE. And the person most advanced in this area that i know is Les Squires. So, Les would you assist in aiding everyone in getting set up on SKYPE and figuring out how we can do this. I'm not really up on the latest tools available to do this, but i am aware of programs like Huddle that allow a number of people to work together at one time on a project.  

 

So, we are going to be learning two things here:  1) Identifying the most critical challenges we face today as the human family and finding solutions for them.  2) Learning what web-based communication tools are available to us, which ones work the best, and how to apply them.  

Anyone other than Les having substantial knowledge in this area, please jump in here and show us how to do this.  

 

with love and hugs to everyone.  suggestions welcome  

 

Permalink Reply by Christopher Thompson on September 7, 2011 at 9:50am

My friend Mary Rose thought my voice could be used in this forum, so I give it with collaborative spirit.

I decided to start with the original comment before reading all of your responses. This is in direct response to the original statement by yf35 (“Once you learn enough about healthcare it's inevitable that you look for the down stream” …)

There may be a tone to this response that seems a little harsh, but I left that intact because I feel it’s important to sometimes dissect a proposition in order to recognize the ingredients of its issue, that’s generally where we find solutions. I apologize for any unintentional upset. 

Although “This isn't the 70s“, is chronologically correct, if you want to come up with a great plan, technology, or movement, you would really benefit from learning the lessons of history before you try to create solutions for the future.

I can’t ignore the fact that I was a little irritated by the reference to Hippies and Flower power. I’ll make a further assumption that in response to my professed irritation, you may have thought something along the lines of “this guy must be a hippie”. Which I only remark is incorrect because it perfectly addresses the context of my message.

In fact, my “irritation” is generated from something much more invasive then someone’s personal prejudice, and “Labeling” disorder. It stems from recognizing the unwillingness to understand the importance of first looking at yourself, dealing with the fears that are present in most of us, and then awaken to the real world, where there are many forms of people, ALL, as important as the next, including thyself. This kind of prejudicial human behavior is the very backbone of the socially governing dynamics which make up the skeletons in our 1970’s closets.

History gives us the opportunity to reflect, understand, and learn what “we” as a people did, and how that now affects us and our futures. It doesn’t exist to simply point blame and caste disparaging labels upon. If you don’t like where you are, explore the history of your decisions and their results, if you don’t like where you are going, understand what you’re doing, and how your direction is a result of your decisions. This applies to the “us” as well as the “you”, because after all “we” are made up of a whole lot of “you’s”.

You want change? Start by understanding yourself, changing yourself, and then you may understand change enough to affect it.

We don’t have to understand why people are different to understand that the differences are there for a reason… Perhaps it’s a divine challenge for us to seek different perspectives, to broaden our own, and to learn the compassionate art of community.  

Although we were steadily on our way to a “monoculture system” and the problems that system creates, before the 1970’s, this decade was an important “tipping point” in our nation’s history, and the world in general. Sometimes, the moments of change are so transparent, IF, you look at them with eyes full of curiosity, not clinched with opinion, misinformation, impatience, or hate. 

Since you brought it up, let’s take the 1970’s.

I will highlight two opinion-driven turning points, with a few factors in between.

• The first, is President Carter’s multiple addresses to the Nation about the energy crisis and our need to examine our direction along with visual examples to follow–like his having solar panels erected on the white house roof.
• The second is President Reagans tearing the solar panels off the white house roof along with “Turning the bull loose on the Market”. Reaganomics and its proceeding effects will surely go down in history as the moment an industrial/manufacturing nation turned into an outsourcing collective with its purpose becoming consumption and short term greed gratification.

During this time period, both administrations were privy to tremendous amounts of information. Some of this information was even highlighted by the 73’ and 79’ petroleum foreign supplier crisis’. They both had seemingly endless supply of data that supported infrastructure change. One of these presidents actually tried to address this See: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCOd-qWZB_g&feature=related

 These moments of economic chaos just further emphasized the “REMINDER” that oil is a finite resource.

This historical waypoint also shows just how important and sometimes dangerous labels can be. This was a true moment of partisan politics, to the point of secularizing our society.  This moment’s labels were defined by Republican and Democrat, we forgot they were affiliations, and warped these labels to define species of people. These days they seem to go so far as to define good and evil.

Considering the unified operating methodology of our government: Does anyone see the problem with that?

It’s getting to be like the north vs. the south again. We should scrap all of the party labels and make choices based on sensibility.

As to your comment: “One is clearly at the government level. However, the government is likely to be more of a problem than the solution”.  The government’s problem is our problem, we are the government. This nation’s brilliant constitutional framework was strengthened, enforced, and operated by its people’s participation. We let the entity known as “corporation” create the “manipulative diffusion of issue” and feed our greed through the independent focus of stock value, the result being hyper focused individual gain and societal detachment. Think caste system.

So far as the question you proposed: Humans are the circuits behind the technology, and this networking site is a perfect example. Take Les Squires for example, here is a man, flesh and bone, which opened his mind and heart to the world and found his passion, his purpose, and his contribution. Basically, he has built a global collaborative bonfire, in which we can all gather and share our thoughts, ideas, solutions, and yes, network information like “where are the food co-op’s”, how best to use farming technology’s, and even the PEOPLE that make it all possible.

I also will use such networking, information, and technologies to assist in the cohesive nature of creating our national network of “Neighborhood Villages”.

When you find a voice, use it in a fashion that at least attempts to reach ALL people, because the key to this transitional age may be to start local, but will surely be experienced globally. Cohesive collaborative behavior is the only positive way to change a massive population’s direction.

As the decision is made, whether this is received as an invitation or challenge, the choice will always be yours. I sincerely hope that you choice to see it as an invitation. 

Permalink Reply by mary rose on September 7, 2011 at 11:19am

Great speech, Christopher.  Thank you for joining Transition in Action and this group.  

It really would be nice if we could find a way to get people like you more up in front and live. Maybe we can begin by doing a YouTube presentation rather than putting things all in text - so cumbersome to try and read everything, but yet i have a satellite dish and have difficulties in viewing videos.  So, maybe we need a little of both. Let's check with the "film"group here on Transition and see what we can work out because we will really need to do a lot of training films as we move deeper into the "hands-on learning" that must take place here if we are to move beyond "just talking" and get into the "doing" of things.

 

I do believe that "social networking" is the new order of the day.  Even the politicians are now moving to this format - take a look at Americans Elect 2012 (www.americanselect.org/).  And, as the price of oil continues to escalate we are at the same time being forced to look at new ways to communicate as face-to-face becomes a thing of the past due to the increasing costs of transportation.  

 

Very much like your idea Chris of a national network of "Neighborhood Villages" as my thinking as the Founder/Director of Future Dawning Enterprises runs along the same pathway and we call them: Habitats in Harmony.  But whatever works for the greatest number. 

 

I also agree with your view that "government is the problem" and i was just this morning discussing with Dr. Kent P. Mesplay, who is running for the support of the Green Party to become the candidate of choice for U.S. President in 2012,  the need for us to move away from conventional politics. I worked with a group quite high up with the Green Party for awhile and from observation was forced to ask: Why are there more Greens outside the Party than are involved in it?"  If anyone here has watched Paul Hawken's video "Blessed Unrest" www.blessedunrest.com/video.html then it becomes obvious that millions of people are becoming GREEN in millions of ways and are doing far more to shift the energy than are those involved in politics.  So, now i have shifted my energy from working with the politicians to working to create a larger movement based on GREEN values. And, introducing them to this new way of thinking and voting.  I am happy to say that Dr. Kent agreed with me. 

 

Since it was announced just a few days ago that no new jobs had been created in August, it appears that with the end of the Industrial Age and large scale manufacturing, we have now arrived at the Age of Knowledge and will need to learn how to do more with less.  And the corporations which have held sway for so long will, as a consequence, be phased out as the new M.O. is to bring a temporary team together to create a product, rent a temporary facility in which to produce it, and create a temporary knowledge team with which to market it.  As the project progresses, teams no longer needed are dropped off and replaced with a team that has the appropriate information to do the job.  

 

Also as much "advanced technology" as is possible will be used in the production process, thus eliminating the need more and more for human labor. And as we continue our move into nanotechnology in order to save on ever more scarce-growing resources, the demand for human labor will decrease.  Nano parts are simply too small for human hands to handle.  

So the question now becomes how do we create an economy that pays people to stay home?  One of the answers i see here is to have as many people as possible raising their own food.  And in doing so raising the most nutritious food possible in the smallest space possible.  More on this later.   

 

Sorry, i got a little carried away here and went slightly off subject.  But my mind is still focused on creating a list of critical issues the human family must address today and then prioritizing the list so we are addressing the ones that present the most danger to us ASAP.  Creating a new economy that works for all of us and not just a privileged few is of great concern.

   

Permalink Reply by mary rose on September 7, 2011 at 4:40pm

I don't believe it is a question of "harnessing technology" today as much as it is about the need for everyone to get connected back to the earth by getting their hands in the dirt and growing their own.  

 

As a society, we suffer from the pathology of dissociation from our life support system -- our Mother Earth.  

In our social evolution as we initially sought out technology in order to give us more power in the world. And, technology has now become our favorite "brain child" and so predominantly so as to suppress the ground qualities of life that were inherent at the beginning of evolution.  

 

These ground qualities were 1) community, 2) natural living, 3) vitality, 4) belonging and 5) equality.  These five things are considered to be "feminine" qualities and are the things that provide us with "soul."   While i have called technology our favorite brain child, the feminine qualities are qualities associated with the heart.  What has happened as we have sought more power in the world in order to protect ourselves from bad weather, natural enemies, and increase our well-being financially, is the creation of so many artificial systems, e.g., the monetary system, the bond market, Wall Street brokerages, owned real estate, jobs, corporations, commercial agriculture, etc. that we have lost our bond with nature. What we have left are things that are devoid of real meaning and which leave us empty inside.  We have in essence lost contact with our heart and have become little more than "talking heads" in many instances.  

 

But technology is not all bad.  What we have done for decades now is to create technology that is not appropriate and conducive to a peaceful and healthy world.  One of the biggest mistakes we may have made is to commercialize our food production system.  And in so-doing, we take fresh wonderful and naturally healthful food and process it so that it nowhere near matches what we take from our home gardens. We now include additives that are toxic, attempt to make meat out soybeans, entice people to eat more by increasing the sugar and salt content in almost everything.  Then we place much of it in containers that leech into the contents, e.g., aluminum cans and plastic bottles -- never mind that these practices may cause cancer and even influence sexuality in a newborn child.  

 

So, the road back to sanity in this instance may be to consider the number of people now being disenfranchised by the corporations and put them to work raising food in their own back or front yards.  I write front yards because green grass lawns now top the list as number one in the field of agriculture in acreage, yet it serves no productive end.    

 

Along this train of thought, I just finished reviewing the new video "Forks over Knives" and heartily recommend it for viewing. If it doesn't make you consider changing the way you eat and moving away from animal flesh and into fresh grown  veggies that contain health-giving anti-oxidants, then you are someone who will probably use up your last penny to pay medical costs associated with just about every disease there is, with cancer and heart disease topping the list, and die at a younger age than is necessary.

 

However the research reports exposed in this video, created separately by two doctors who did not know one another until their programs were well under way, clearly tell that a fresh plant - based diet is the path to total wellness.

 

The introduction to the book reads :  "Forks over Knives" examines the profound claim that most, if not all, of the degenerative diseases that afflict us can be controlled, or be reversed, by rejecting animal - based and processed foods. Reading this one cannot help but ask how many of our health care costs today could be reduced by simply moving into a plant-based diet?  And, to those who say they cannot survive without meat, the question is:  "Are you living to eat" or are you "Eating to live?

 

It is a matter of choice.   Let's hear some thoughts on this.  Hopefully some of you will purchase the DVD and/or the book.  Again the choice is yours. If we are going to comment in this group i would like to see comments that are from informed sources rather than from someone just talking off the top of their head. However, as i wrote this i also realized that many times new insights arrive from my attempts to put together a post to one list or another.   

 

Think of it this way -- there is no doubt that "we are what we eat."  Food is the fuel we put into our system to make it go just as we have to put fuel in our car to go anyplace.  And, most of us use the best quality of gas we can find when we go to the pumps.  We don't want to risk a break down on the freeway -- but yet many risk having a break down on the highway of life due to putting inappropriate fuel in their  human operating system.

 

Could this be a sign of insanity?  

 

Well, it may well be the cause of insanity.  Statistics today taken from both Harvard University and the Institute of National Health reveal that an astounding 26.2% of the residents of the U.S. may be defined as "legally mentally ill."  Ladies and gentlemen, this is over one-quarter of the population of the U.S.  However, recent information indicates that a poor diet may be the leading cause of mental illness.  More on this later as it applies to addiction as well. 

 

Today, smart doctors know that "food can be just as potent as medicine" and toxic foods or one's that cause a pH imbalance in the system, can easily lead to disease in the human mind-body field.  

 

There is a book accompanying the Forks over Knives video presentation.  The forward to it was written by T. Colin Campbell, Ph.D., author of "The China Study" and Caldwell B. Esselstyn, Jr, M.D. author of "Prevent and Reverse Heart Disease."   These are things that you hopefully really want to know about and understand.  Change does not come easily, but if nothing changes, nothing changes. 

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